A conversation with Bobby Gillespie of Primal Scream from 2000
My plan was to discuss the raging political rhetoric of XTRMNTR. Instead, we mostly just talked about Royal Trux and The Stooges
Welcome to stübermania, where I dig into my box of dust-covered interview cassettes from the 1990s and 2000s (and crusty mp3 files from the 2010s) to present bygone conversations with your favourite alterna/indie semi-stars and the occasional classic-rock icon.
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THE OPENERS
Merry Listmas, everybody! The first week of December marks the official start of year-in-review season, and while my personal picks will be gradually revealed here starting next week, I did take part in some communal canonization efforts that were recently published. I contributed blurbs on No Joy (No. 84) and TURNSTILE (No. 55) to Pitchfork’s 100 Best Songs of 2025 feature, while extolling the jangle-punk pleasures of Artificial Go in the first part of Bandcamp Daily’s alphabetical best-albums roundup, and the psych-pop splendour of Sharp Pins in the second.
And if the 100 words on Sharp Pins in the aforelinked Bandcamp feature isn’t enough Kai Slater stanning for you, here’s another 800+ I wrote this week for Pitchfork about the second fully stacked jukebox of lo-fi insta-classics he’s rolled out this year, Balloon Balloon Balloon.
Seven years ago this week, I was interviewed by filmmakers Mat Dunlap and Ryan Gullen for a documentary they were making about unsung Montreal garage-rock legends Tricky Woo that was to be included in the 20th-annversary deluxe edition of their 1999 classic Sometimes I Cry. Apparently, that film is now getting a proper public screening: If you’re in the Montreal area this Saturday night (Dec. 6), head over to Bar Le Record for a presentation of I’m Not a Man I’m a Coastline, which features me spreading the gospel of the Woo alongside a cast of Canadian rock icons that includes Ian Blurton, Strombo, Ian D’Sa of Billy Talent, and more. And if you can’t make it to Montreal, you’ll be able to watch the film this weekend on YouTube. In the meantime, here’s a clip from the doc featuring me engaging in a time-honored rock-critic tradition: comparing music to food.
RIP Steve Cropper—Stax legend, honorary Blues Brother, and, for three minutes at least, the best guitarist Big Star ever had (on the best Velvet Underground cover ever made):
I wrote about my history with The Dears a few weeks ago in this space, and I’m grateful that history continues to this day: This past Monday at Mills Hardware in Hamilton, the Montreal art-pop armada treated us to a generous spread of songs from across their career (from No Cities Left standards like “22: The Death of All the Romance” to the shoulda-been national anthem “You and I Are a Gang of Losers” to latter-day Lovers Rock highlights like “The Worst of Us”), showcasing the unerring consistency of a band that has never lost the plot. Naturally, they seemed especially excited to dig into their new album, Life Is Beautiful! Life Is Beautiful! Life Is Beautiful!, as frontman Murray Lightburn delivered its glorious glam stomper “Doom Pays” with enough FitBit-busting gusto to justify the album title’s triple-exclamation-mark salutation:
Before we get to this week’s additions to the stübermania 2025 jukebox, an administrative note: I will no longer be hosting a Spotify version of the playlist here. I’ve never actually had a paid Spotify subscription—Apple Music has always been my go-to streamer, simply because it integrates seamlessly with the pre-existing iTunes mp3 library I’ve been building since 2002, and I always hated the idea of having my digital-music collection scattered across multiple platforms. My primary reason for having a basic Spotify account was simply to duplicate my Apple Music playlists and share them on social media and in this newsletter. (Unlike Spotify, Apple Music players don’t render in Substack.) But even this arms-length use of Spotify feels untenable, given, well… take your pick. So, going forward, I’ll be hosting the playlist on TIDAL, in addition to the long-standing Apple Music version linked below. All big tech platforms are, of course, problematic to some degree (including the one I’m typing on now), but the very least I can do is direct a greater penny fraction to artists (which, as Los Campesinos revealed this week, can actually make a substantial difference) while minimizing your exposure to ICE recruitment propaganda. With that out of the way, let’s get to this week’s new arrivals:
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds, “Wild God (Live)”: Live God (out today) is the fifth Bad Seeds concert document to date, but it still feels like a necessary addition to the Cave canon, as it captures the ecstatic gospel-delic extravagance of the band’s 2025 tour with stunning clarity. The title track from last year’s Wild God includes a lyrical callback to Cave’s 2013 track “Jubilee Street,” but in a live setting, the namecheck becomes a challenge to usurp that song as the manic, showstopping highlight of a Bad Seeds show—and once the back-up singers take control at the 2:50 mark, Cave is transforming, glowing and vibrating on a whole ‘nother level. Look at him now.
Living Hour, “Wheel”: It took me a minute to get around to listening to this Winnipeg band’s latest, Internal Drone Infinity—maybe I needed temperatures to sufficiently dip before cozying up to autumn-sweatered indie-rock reveries like this one, in which Sam Sarty’s soaring vocals and a sweetly squealing guitar line blissfully collide on a chorus that gushes out like a bottle of Coke spiked with a Mento.
The World Provider (feat. Peaches), “Faster/One More Try”: Peaches just announced the upcoming release of her first album since 2015 (and first for Kill Rock Stars), No Lube So Rude, but before she gets back to her X-rated electro-shocked shenanigans, check out this prog-psych detour she recently took with her old party pal The World Provider on his new record, Themes. You’ve heard Peaches belt out “The Great Gig in the Sky” before; now, you can more easily imagine what she’d do with “Astronomy Domine.”
Slash Need, “The Money Will Roll Right In”: Halfway into their recently released debut, SIT & GRIN, these Toronto technocore terrors partake in a hallowed punk rite of passage—i.e., covering this sneering ‘80s-era anti-anthem from Bay Area hardcore heathens Fang. However, in this case, the original’s proto-grunge grind is displaced by a strobe-lit industrialized assault and an absolutely possessed lead vocal from Dusty Lee that practically turns the song’s sarcastic chorus line into ironclad prophecy.
THE HEADLINER:
A conversation with Bobby Gillespie
The date: March 3, 2000
Publication: CMJ New Music Monthly
Location: Bobby was in New York; I was at the Eye Weekly office in Toronto.
Album being promoted: Primal Scream’s XTRMNTR
The context: So as I mentioned in last week’s tribute post to Mani, my interview with the late Primal Scream bassist was immediately followed by a phoner with his bandmate, frontman Bobby Gillespie. And like the Mani chat, my aim was to get Bobby to unpack the strident anti-imperialist messaging of Primal Scream’s XTRMNTR and, ideally, get him to say something outrageous about American politics that would make for a good pull quote in the brief, front-of-book featurette I was assigned to write for CMJ. But while Mani was happy to sound off, Bobby wasn’t having it. At all.
Honestly, the first few minutes of the interview reprinted below constituted the most difficult attempt at sustaining a conversation I’ve experienced in my entire music-journalism career. This was one of my first assignments for a major U.S. magazine, but the combination of a shaky phone line, Bobby’s quiet voice, pronounced Scottish accent, audibly exhausted demeanour, and seeming disinterest in my line of questioning had me thinking I had completely blown my big break. Whenever he offered up more than a three-word answer, I could barely hear what he was saying, and it sounded like he was about to drift off into a nap at any moment. It seemed highly like that I’d be walking away from this interview with zero usable quotes.
Then, just after Bobby requested that we shift my line of questioning away from politics to music, he said he had to go to the bathroom and dropped the phone—and I was pretty certain he wasn’t going to come back. I waited for about three minutes that felt like an eternity, all while thinking about the phone call I would need have with my editor about how I fucked up the assignment. But then, just as I was about to hang up, Bobby returned… sounding extremely refreshed. Maybe he had a cup of coffee. Maybe he had a highly restorative bowel movement. Maybe he had something else. But from that moment on, what started as the worst interview experience of my professional career suddenly turned into one of the best, as I spent the next 40 minutes shooting the shit with the frontman of one of my favourite bands as he sang bits of Royal Trux and Stooges songs to me. Sure, very little of it was remotely useful for my article, but I at least came away from our conversation content in the knowledge that I just might’ve convinced Bobby to shell out for the Fun House box set.
Hi Bobby, my name’s Stuart, I’m calling from CMJ Monthly Magazine. How are you doing?
Good.
I see you’re staying at the Soho Grand—I would’ve figured you more for a Chelsea Hotel type…
Uh… yeah… Room 100.
So are you having a good time in New York City?
Yeah.
Have you noticed a major change in New York City since you were last there? There’s a lot of talk about how Giuliani has been cracking down…
Yeah, taking the homeless people off the streets…
That seems to tie into what you’re singing about on XTRMNTR—“exterminate the underclass”… it feels like the same thing is happening on this side of the pond, too.
Where are you calling from?
I’m calling from Toronto—but this interview is for an American magazine. A lot of this album is fuelled by a disgust for the American capitalist framework that seems to be impacting the whole world…
And British capitalism, Canadian capitalism… it’s all tied to the U.S. G7 countries… World Bank… IMF…
You feel like that’s all an extension of American imperialism?
Yeah.
Can you talk about what aspects of the American ideology bother you the most?
I don’t think it’s so specific to America… they just happen to be the biggest superpower in the world…
People say Canada and Scotland are similar because we both have a big, brutish neighbour to the south of us…
Did you say British?
Oh, no, I said brutish—B-R-U-T-I-S-H. Sorry, our phone connection isn’t great. So have you been following the U.S. President of race at all?
Nah, I don’t really care. Whoever gets in, it just feels like [inaudible]… just like in England.
Do you have any faith in any governments around the world?
No… I think if there hadn’t been a huge worldwide embargo employed by the States against Cuba, and Cuba would be allowed to trade, it’d be the best country in the world. It could prove that socialism works.
Do you have any hope for this generation of kids to wake up and sort of start taking action?
I don’t know. You better ask them.
You’re not trying to inspire them at all?
We can try to get our point of view across… and hopefully that can inspire something in them.
What do you think people can do to stop the influence of corporations in our lives, short of, like, firebombing a McDonald’s?
I don’t know… Don’t buy their goods, I guess. It’s hard… nobody knows who the people are who control these fucking things, they’re beyond the record of the government. They don’t even pay taxes in the state. But can we talk about the music?
Sure. It’s just that a lot of the British press we’ve gotten over here about the album has played up the anti-American slant of the record, so that’s why I’m asking all these questions…
Well, only American foreign policy, not so much the people… They’ll fucking bomb the shit out of Iraq… over a million people have died, mostly women and kids. I call that genocide. And the U.K. is complicit in that.
I hear a spiritual connection between XTRMNTR between records like Fun House, There’s a Riot Goin’ On, and Kick Out the Jams…
Can you hold on, I’m just going to the toilet for a second…
Sure.
[Bobby takes the aforementioned extended bathroom break.]
Okay.
So as I was saying, I hear a connection between XTRMNTR and records like Fun House, There’s a Riot Goin’ On, and Kick Out the Jams. Those records came out of harsh, desperate circumstances. Do you think good music can only come out of those situations?
Yeah, I think so.
Do you see a connection between Britain now and Detroit in ‘68?
It’s actually a lot worse in Britain. The whole working class in Great Britain is probably becoming like what Black ghettoism was in Detroit in 1970. The cities are flooded with heroin and cocaine, and you’ve got a population with no work or no prospect of work. And I’ve noticed the social changes that have taken place since ‘79, with Thatcher and her free-market politics, 20 years on… we can see damage and the wreckage of those policies. The place is fucked.
So what keeps you there?
That’s where I live! I love the people. It’s hard to see people abandoned, and just shat on. The current government is just continuing the same kind of policies. Earlier you asked about Bush—whether it’s Bush or Reagan or Clinton, it doesn’t matter, they’ll still fucking bomb the shit of the Iraq. And it’s like, what do you think about Sadaam Hussein? He was America and Britain’s guy in that part of the world for 10 years in the ‘80s, when they funded his 10-year war against Iran. The CIA gave him military aid for tanks and guns, jet fighters, you name it.
And now Bush’s son is running for president.
Fucking hell. I read somewhere his grandfather was part of a business consortium that helped finance heroin. I don’t know if it’s a conspiracy theory, but I believe it’s true, because those fuckers are so set in their eugenics; they’re complete white supremacists. That whole family, they’re really fucking sinister.
And the alternative here is Al Gore, whose wife tried to ban Prince records in the ‘80s.
Oh, there you go. There’s no democracy, here [in the U.S.] or in Great Britain. It’s like a one-party state. It’s an illusion of democracy, that’s what it looks like to me.
But at the same time, would you say you’re still primarily a rock ‘n’ roll band as opposed to a political entity?
Yeah, totally. I see it as reviving the culture.
It’s interesting that the last song on XTRMNTR is “Shoot Speed Speed Kill Light,” which is this straight-ahead guitar/bass/drums rocker, whereas everything before that is so brutal, heavy, and more abstract. It’s almost like you’re saying, in the end, it’s just rock ‘n’ roll.
I don’t know, I never thought about it like that. I just thought it was a great driving song. I really want to test that song on Autobahn at night.
So this will be your first time touring America in a while.
Yeah, I guess, since 1994.
Which wasn’t the best period for the band..
No. [laughs]
So do you feel like you’re coming over here with a renewed sense of purpose to fuck shit up?
Yeah, we want to come here and fucking destroy place… musically.
Over here, when a band like Rage Against the Machine tries to step forward with a message, most people don’t really absorb it—they just start moshing all over each other. Is it important to you that people actually understand what you’re singing about, as opposed to just going crazy at the gig?
No, I don’t really care. They can go crazy and dance, and maybe they’ll be open to suggestion, and the ideas might sneak in. We write about what we see and what we feel—you don’t really know what the reaction is going to be.
Do you feel like you’re alone in your mission, or are there other bands out there you feel a kinship with?
The only other band I like is Royal Trux.
Alright! You’re a big Royal Trux fan?
I fucking love them. They’re awesome. They’re one of only truly modern rock ‘n’ roll bands, who are truly experimental.
You never know what you’re going to get from them.
You never know. I love that. Did you get that Radio Video EP?
Yeah, it’s bizarre…
It’s fucking excellent.
They put out that EP like two years ago that I really loved, the 3-Song EP…
[Starts singing] “Run, shaker life!”
Yeah, But that second track, “The United States of America Versus…”
“...One 1974 Cadillac Eldorado Sedan.”
That song is so epic. Have you seen them live recently?
Yeah, I saw them live in December in London.
They’re almost like the Allman Brothers now…
I don’t know…
I just mean in terms of them being really tight, and they’ve got the two drummers now..
They’re better than that! They’ve got two big ol’ boys on drums… they’ll do a 12-minute free-form thing and then do a two-minute fucking punk rock song. It’s great.
And Jennifer’s got a mullet now.
Jennifer is the queen of rock ‘n’ roll.
Was she singing with two microphones when you saw her?
Yeah, she had these effects pedals she was putting her voice through. But what really got me was when Neil was singing. I never realized it before, but he’s got the fucking voice of an Appalachian mountain man on a Harry Smith anthology. And when they sing together, it’s so beautiful.
It’s funny: she kind of sounds like Keith and he sounds like Mick.
Oh, yeah, I know what you mean. But Mick is like a white English guy trying to sing like a Black American. But Neil’s got that country in there as well, along with the rock ‘n’ roll thing.
The press has always portrayed them as a couple of weirdos, but I just interviewed Neil a couple of months ago, and it sounds like they’re living a nice quiet life in their country house in Virginia with their dogs and home studio…
It’s insane, because you know that song “Waterpark”? Fucking hell, that’s a hit single.
But then that album [Veterans of Disorder] just goes right off the deep end once you hit “Sickazz Dog”...
I like that second song: [sings] “Change partners and dance…” And on the last record, Accelerator, they had that song, “Yellow Kid”: [sings] “I don’t like this arrangement/ wild schemes and nothing but bad dreams/ I don’t like this arrangement/ and we can’t win without the kid. We need somebody/ Somebody like the kid.” Fucking amazing. I love “Stevie,” the last song.
Do you have the Cats & Dogs album? That’s a classic.
I don’t like that stuff as much…
Oh really? Because I thought Accelerator was like a return to their Cats & Dogs form after their major-label years…
Accelerator is a classic.
So we’ve been talking about your favourite American band. Are there any U.K. bands on your wavelength?
No.
England’s still dreaming?
No, it stopped dreaming.
I just got back from England, and I saw a bunch of 10-year retrospective articles about whether the promise of the Stone Roses and Screamadelica was truly fulfilled. Do you look back at the time now and feel like it was a little too escapist?
I don’t think Screamadelica was escapist… it was celebratory, but it wasn’t escapist.
When you play live now, does it feel like there’s a stark contrast between the Screamadelica tracks and the XTRMNTR tracks?
Not really. We’re playing “Higher Than the Sun,” “Movin’ on Up,” “Screamadelica”... “Burning Wheel” and “Medication” from Vanishing Point. We even play “Get Your Rocks Off,” because it’s a lot of fun to play. It’s like being in Cocksucker Blues for three minutes.
So the first version of XTRMNTR I got had your cover of The Third Bardo’s “Five Years Ahead of My Time.”
You know that record?
Yeah, I know it from the Nuggets box set.
See, we used to take a lot of acid back in ‘84, and we would listen to 13th Floor Elevators, Love, and we were buying all those Pebbles records, and that was a track we were all drawn to. I got a seven-inch single of that, some company reissued them—Sundazed, out of the States. They’re reissuing all these seven-inch classic garage-rock records. Are you familiar with that album Oar by Skip Spence? They remastered Oar with extra tracks. It’s fucking beautiful—you hear so much you hadn’t heard before.
I remember hearing you do that Third Bardo track at Glastonbury a few years ago and it really stood out for me, so I was happy to see it on my advance copy of XTRMNTR. And I wrote a review for the album for my local paper where I single that song out as encapsulating everything you’re about right now… and it’s not on the record!
Ha ha ha. It didn’t show up. I think it’s going to come out on an EP in the summer.
I just thought that track was a good bridge from XTRMNTR to the ‘60s stuff you’re inspired by, and how it’s all still relevant today.
The fucking lyrics to that are outrageous [sings]: “I’m five years ahead of my time!”
It’s like your mission statement—especially at a time when so much UK rock is looking backwards…
It’s like 1974 again, isn’t it? Everything else is so conservative; it’s just a bunch of 19-year-olds trying to sound like Bryan Adams. It’s disgraceful.
At the same time, don’t you need shitty music to inspire you to make great music in response?
No… I just listen to great music and try to make more of that.
So do you still find yourself going back to records like Fun House and There’s a Riot Goin’ On?
Yeah, definitely. White Light/White Heat…
Have you heard the Fun House box set?
No, have you heard that?
Yeah.
Is it worth getting?
Well, Fun House is my favourite album of all time, so I had to buy it no matter what. The alternate versions of the song “Fun House” are 10-minutes long and they’re insane—they’re worth the price of the box set alone.
Really? Maybe I should get it… where can you buy it?
You can only get it on the internet from Rhino.
How much was it?
It was $120 American, so for me, it came out to, like, $200 Canadian dollars. That’s like 100 pounds for you. But you just put it on and get it sucked in. There’s, like, 30 takes on “Loose” in a row.
Fucking hell. Does it get more and more intense?
Yeah, well, like “Down on the Street” starts off really slow, and then by take 30, it’s fully cooking.
What’s “L.A. Blues” like?
Well, there’s a 17-minute version of that. The “L.A. Blues” on the record was an edit of this one.
Is it incredible, then? Steve Mackay, man…
That was the best move they ever made: bringing him on for side 2…
Is there a good book and stuff for that?
Yeah—it’s six CDs, so there’s an essay that spreads across all six CD booklets. It’s really long. And the best part is that there’s a bonus mini-disc, packaged like an original 45. The thing is, there was no official single from that album, but Elektra sent out a version of “Down on a Street” with organ on it, so it sounds like The Doors?
Is it radically different?
The organ is really gratuitous—it sounds totally out of place on there.
“Down on the Street” is fucked up, isn’t it? Do you hear the James Brown on that album?
Oh yeah, on the song “Fun House” in particular.
It’s total James Brown, isn’t it? The whole band had a really strong idea of how they wanted to sound. They brought in Coltrane, James Brown, but somehow did it in their own way. I like “Dirt” [sings]: “I’ve been dirt, I don’t care…”
My favourite song has always been “1970.”
They quote Chuck Berry on that.
Just like how you quote Dylan on “Exterminator.”
Yeah. “Look out kid/ they keep it all hid.”
Still applies today. Which is almost kind of sad—35 years later, nothing’s changed.
Things have always been the fucking same, man. Old world order, new world order, punk rock…
So do you prefer the Stooges or the MC5?
I love them both.
That’s not an answer, man.
I know, it’s just like… are you alive or are you dead, you know? I fucking love ‘em both. It’s really weird because I’ve seen films of the MC5 performing, and just the commitment… it’s really almost innocent and pure. I don’t know if you’ve seen some of them…
I’ve seen footage of them playing “Kick Out the Jams” on a TV show…
Is that with the big clock behind them? I’ve seen that. I’ve also seen a live gig where Sonic Smith’s dressed as a Silver Surfer. He’s wearing almost like a swimming cap but with fins on top, like a fish, and these really strange sunglasses and he’s wearing a cape, so he looked like a superhero. And Kramer’s just incredible… I think they’re heroic. That’s the best way I can describe them: heroic.
Rhino’s actually putting out an MC5 compilation…
Yeah, I read that. Someone told me the other day that some underground film came out and the whole soundtrack was the MC5 just playing free-jazz rock.
There’s supposed to be a Royal Trux movie from ‘92 that I’ve never been able to find.
Yeah, Live at Gettysburg…
No, it’s called What Is Royal Trux? Apparently, it ends with them getting slaughtered in a gymnasium.
Oh shit, I’d love to see that.
It’s impossible to find. I looked all over New York for it…
Just ask Jennifer for it. Use your brains, man!
Do you do a lot of record shopping in New York?
This time, I haven’t had any chance. We’re only here for five days and then tonight I go back to Britain and then Monday/Tuesday, we start to rehearse and add some new songs to our set and then Wednesday, we go on tour. I’ve just been working here from 12 to 7 or 8 each night, trying to spread the word.
It’s nice that you’re finally getting a solid push in the U.S.
Yeah, I know, we’ve always wanted to do well here. And I think it’s a good time for us. The band is so heavy live. We’ve got three guitar players—Kevin Shields is playing with us.
So he’s doing the whole tour?
Oh yeah. It’s just like a guitar army. It’s really fucking awesome.
His tracks on XTRMNTR are just insane.
Yeah, “Accelerator”...
That song must be pretty fucking loud live.
We play at over 125dbs every night. It’s tearing heads off everywhere. A free body bag with every T-shirt, you know? Where are you phoning from?
I’m in Toronto.
We’re going to play in Toronto. We’re coming man! Live rock in Toronto!
It’s chill here… but you could say that makes us worse than the U.S. because we’re so complacent about everything…
Everybody’s complacent.
Canada prides itself on being a multicultural country, and saying everyone’s welcome here, but deep down, the same racism exists here as anywhere…
Mixed blood, man, that’s the way of the future. It’s always been the way. Tribes have always mixed. That patriotic, nationalist thing—I despise that.
Well, in the U.K. you have your football lads, and here, we have hockey dudes—it’s the same kind of thug mentality. But it feels like the lad thing is dying down a bit over there…
No, it’s not. It’s always been there and it always will be. But that’s good: because of that, you start a rock ‘n’ roll band to try to get away from them.
Kurt Cobain had a quote about jocks…
I loved him because he hated those guys…
He was talking about how all these jock guys were starting to form punk-rock bands, so to get back at them, he was going to take up basketball.
That’s brilliant. Those Trenchcoat Mafia kids in Columbine, the people that they took out first were the jocks, who used to pick on them because they were skinny little kids… hey, I’ve got to go man, because I’ve got a flight to catch.
Well, you don’t want to miss that.
Well, I don’t mind if we do!
ENCORES
This interview serves as a time capsule of that final pre-broadband era before every rare album or film you ever desired could be accessed with the click of a mouse. For instance, that once-impossible-to-find What Is Royal Trux? movie that I mentioned to Bobby can be found right here:
And while this footage of The MC5 performing in Paris circa 1972 is hard to watch for a number of reasons—the poor lighting, the shaky camerawork, the decayed resolution, the sheer ignominy of seeing one of America’s all-time greatest rock ‘n’ roll bands playing to an empty club—it was the only video evidence I could find of Fred “Sonic” Smith in the Silver Surfer regalia that Bobby described.
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