A conversation with Neko Case from 2009

The sweetheart of the indie-rock rodeo talks about killer animals, lovable tornadoes, the proper way to cover Harry Nilsson, and why we need more movies about abortion

Nov 14, 2024

Welcome to stübermania, where I dig into my box of dust-covered interview cassettes from the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s to present bygone conversations with your favourite alterna/indie semi-stars. This is a newsletter in three parts: The Openers (links to recent writings, playlist updates, and/or other musical musings), The Headliner (your featured interview of the week), and Encores (random yet related links).

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THE OPENERS

This is me posting on a Twitter alternative to make a post about posting on a Twitter alternative—i.e., follow me on BlueSky!
This week at Pitchfork, I reviewed the exquisite new album from Jennifer Castle, Camelot, a late-breaking, suitably autumnal entry onto my best-of-2024 list. RIYL: mid-’70s Neil, Jessica Pratt, Bill Callahan, The Weather Station, and other weird 'n' wonderful folk-rock mystics who like to dig their heels into the dirt and burrow a path deep into the subconscious.
After a week off, we’re back with a fresh batch of updates to the stübermania 2024 playlist, including a lot of stuff I’m catching up on as year-end listmaking season begins:
- Fucked Up, “Grains of Paradise”: The Toronto hardcore heretics just surprise-dropped their third album in three months, Someday, but this one is greatly distinguished by the fact that the band’s once-silent guitarist/mastermind Mike Haliechuk sings lead on most of the tunes. If you enjoyed his Bob Mouldy turn on last year’s excellent “Cicada” single, there’s a lot more of that wig-flippin’ action here.
- Dancer, “Change”: I’m a simple man with simple needs, and one of them is for more bands to sound like Life Without Buildings…
- Magdalena Bay, “Death & Romance”: …and another is for more bands to sound like Let’s Eat Grandma.
- Primal Scream, “Come Ahead”: The Scream’s latest, Come Ahead, is set to that precise summer-of-’75 temperature where funk started melting into disco, but I find myself most enamored with the comedown moments—like this symphonic-soul reverie, which sounds like Screamadelica’s Sunday-morning hangover ballad “Damaged” sung by someone who’s still holed up in the club bathroom at 3am.
- OMBIIGIZI, “Photograph”: The Anishnawbe-Canadian band—fronted by Daniel Monkman (a.k.a. Zoon) and Adam Sturgeon (a.k.a. Status/Non-Status)—just released its second album, SHAME, with Broken Social Scene’s Kevin Drew back behind the boards. Accordingly, SHAME strikes a BSS-like balance of urgent indie anthems and dreamy post-rock pastorales, but “Photograph” executes a smooth, seamless transition between those two poles in real time, as its tense, twitchy energy gives way to an extended ambient dissolve you wish could go on forever.
- Fievel Is Gloque, “As Above So Below”: The Brooklyn/Brussels duo’s recent album, Rong Weicknes, can test one’s tolerance for over-caffeinated prog-jazz whimsy. But FIG are delightful in small doses: This tune possesses the uncanny ability to sound both totally blissed-out and completely manic at the same time, like Stereolab crafting Yo Gabba Gabba jingles.
- Tyler, the Creator, “Hey Jane”: Last week, I produced the Commotion segment on Tyler’s new album, CHROMAKOPIA, during which our guest commentator Cadence Weapon singled out this track—which gives voice to both sides of a couple grappling with a surprise pregnancy—as a prime example of Tyler’s growth as a songwriter. Tyler has cited Kendrick Lamar’s soul-baring Mr. Morale & The Big Steppers as a key influence and, in a sense, “Hey Jane” feels like the sobering flipside to that album’s apocalyptic he-said/she-said showdown “We Cry Together,” but with the fight-and-fuck fury replaced with a sanguine spirit of mutual respect.
- Peter Perrett, “Do Not Resuscitate”: One of the great underreported stories of our time is the surprise late-career renaissance of Only Ones frontman Peter Perrett, who, at age 72, still refuses to go gently into that good night even as a decades-long struggle with COPD has him living on borrowed time. His new double (!) album The Cleansing is full of spunky, darkly humorous songs about impending death—like this strung-out Velvets-esque serenade where he’s practically begging you to pull the plug.
- Sloppy Jane (feat. Phoebe Bridgers), “Claw Machine”: Last weekend, I started watching I Saw the TV Glow and swiftly fell asleep—and that’s more a comment on my misguided attempt to cozy up with a hushed, hazy-headed film at 11pm after a long day of parenting than the quality of the film itself. But my bleary eyes opened up during the mid-movie performance of this dulcet dream-pop ballad, and for a moment there, I wasn’t sure if I was actually awake or just imagining it, which is essentially the intended effect of Jane Schoenbrun’s film, so even if I didn’t see the whole movie, I certainly felt it.

Click here for the Apple Music version of the playlist.

THE HEADLINER:
A conversation with Neko Case

The date: January 23, 2009

Location: The Park Hyatt in Toronto

Publication: Eye Weekly

Album being promoted: Middle Cyclone

The context: The first time I interviewed Neko Case, back in January of 2001, the scene was very much what I expected from a Neko Case interview: We were sitting in the front lounge of Toronto’s eternally boho Cameron House, as a steady stream of bourbon shots were delivered by servers with whom Case was on a first-name basis. Eight years later, the scene had shifted dramatically from a shabby-chic Queen West bar to a pristine suite at the Yorkville Park Hyatt, where our conversation was interrupted by polite inquiries from bow-tied bellhops who wanted to know if Neko needed her mini-bar restocked.

But as the weeks following our interview would prove, the Park Hyatt was only the third strangest place I would see Neko Case that year. The second was on the northbound subway platform at Bloor subway station, where a large, life-size poster advertised her new album, Middle Cyclone, for rush-hour commuters. But hands down the strangest place Neko Case occupied in 2009 was sandwiched between Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga on the Billboard 200 albums chart, where Middle Cyclone debuted at No. 3. And that was thanks in no small part to jangly gems like “People Got a Lotta of Nerve,” which, with all due respect to Hall & Oates and Nelly Furtado, is the greatest song ever about maneaters.

This interview happened just a few days after Barack Obama was inaugurated into the White House for his first term. Naturally, our conversation touched on that event towards the end, and while Neko expressed a cautious optimism for the new era of HOPE™, she also voiced various frustrations with her country that feel just as trenchant 15 years later, as America experiences another dramatic vibe shift.

Middle Cyclone is full of references to animal behaviour and natural phenomena. Has doing interviews for the record put you in the position of becoming an armchair anthropologist?

There’s been a little bit of that. Basically, it’s just about instinct. It’s not the most easily explainable thing in the world all the time: Why instinct tells you to do certain things.

I’m curious: How did that phrase “This Tornado Loves You” come to you?

I don’t know how the phrase came to me, but I got the story in a dream—I had this dream where I was talking to a tornado, because the tornado wanted me to read it a book, because it couldn’t read the book because it couldn’t hold it in its hands. It was being forceful about the fact that I needed to read it this book, and then it got a little nicer as I read it the book. I remember feeling very emotionally tied to the tornado and I woke up feeling very emotional, but kinda thinking it was very funny as well.

Is there an aspect to the song of not being afraid of the things we’re taught to be afraid of?

Yeah, definitely. There’s only one life that we know of—everyone can say they know of another one, but they can’t prove it, so it seems like it’s a good thing to hedge your bets and make sure you do a good job on this one.

What was the inspiration for “People Got a Lotta Nerve”?

That one’s kind of literal, too. It seems like every time I go on tour and I’m in a hotel room and I turn the TV, there’s always some sort of animal-disaster show happening, or somebody’s just been mauled by a tiger in a zoo, and everyone’s always so shocked. And I’m like, “It’s a fucking tiger! What the fuck do you want it to do? You got it in the cage and you were poking it with something, and it killed you. What did you want it to do?”

So you didn’t shed a tear for Steve Irwin?

I actually felt really bad about that, because I liked him a lot. He was more into animals and their habitats—he wasn’t like, “Let’s get it and put it in a cage for our own benefit.” He wasn’t a “this is for the children” type of abuse guy. He really did like the animals. It’s just that zoos and elephants—it’s a bad deal. They’re meant to walk 70 miles a day, otherwise their feet go bad and they go insane and die. Killer whales need to swim 200 miles a day—hy would it be happy in that little ice box?

Speaking of habitats—is Vermont a new one for you?

I lived there when I was a kid and I always wanted to go back. I bought a farm there, and I haven’t moved there yet because I’m still renovating the house. It’s not like it’s a huge renovation, it’s just that I prefer to do things on a smaller scale and with people I know. So coordinating everybody’s time, including my own, has just taken a while. It’s pretty remote, which I enjoy. I’m about a half an hour from some French toast –that’s my lifeline.

Were you missing the winter?

I really was, I’m a real fan of winter. I’m not an ocean guy, so I don’t have to be coastal—I like the mountains and trees. I always lived near the ocean on the west coast, but it’s not really my bag. I was always drawn more to the eastern part of Washington than the western part. And I like the forests on the east coast—they’re more small scale. The forests on the west are such massive trees, and here it’s more fairytale-style.

Do you always intend to record in various locations?

Yeah, I’ve got to break it up, otherwise I get kind of batty, and the end result suffers because you don’t have any perspective. I mean, thank god for The New Pornographers—I don’t know what I would do if I couldn’t just pick up and leave and go on tour with them and sing different songs for a while. It’s a good palate cleanser and then you come back with a renewed sense of vigor.

I was pleasantly surprised to see Kurt Heasely from the Lilys co-wrote “I’m an Animal.” How did he get involved?

I had a friend track him down, and then he found him on Facebook and he said, “Hey, my friend wants to know if she can contact you, is that okay?” And he said “Yeah, call me up!” I had never met him before but we became good friends. He’s a fucking hoot, that guy. He’s also probably the tallest person I’ve ever met—he’s 6’7”, how fucked up is that! He’s such a bubbly, enthusiastic human being, and he’s so funny—I had the best time with him.

Is it me or is there more of a male vocal presence on this record?

Yeah, because there really hasn’t been one before. The New Pornographers are a really large influence on my band as well, because obviously it’s kind of unavoidable, we spend a lot of time together. I like the way New Pornographers arrange things—I’ve gotten addicted to lots and lots of vocals, and I wanted there to be men on this record singing. There wasn’t any reason there wasn’t before, it just didn’t happen that way for some reason. It wasn’t a conscious decision. I decided to get more equal opportunity and not be such a sexist this time and let the men sing for a change!

However, in contrast to The New Pornographers, there’s little verse/chorus/verse structure to your songs…

Yeah, I’m a little more linear—it’s more like a little story or a little movie, whereas Carl [Newman] is very consciously writing pop songs. Dan [Bejar] kind of exists in the space between me and Carl, he’s kind of both ways. I’m a little more both-ways than I used to be—there are more choruses on this record than there were on [2006’s] Fox Confessor [Brings the Flood] for sure. Because I wanted there to be a vehicle for more singing.

This does feel like an extension of Fox Confessor, in terms of the folkloric themes.

There’s still fairytale elements. The song “Fever” is an 1800s America view of thinking about Death as a guy that you might run into somewhere—like, what would happen if you ran across Death and he didn’t know you were there? How would Death behave thinking he was unobserved? By “guy,” I mean “character.” My grandmother uses the word “guy” for everyone, including herself. I say “guy” all the time, and I realize I have to explain that.

Do you naturally write conceptually?

The themes reveal themselves about halfway through. They become evident when you start trying to arrange them. Because in the beginning I’m so scared and desperate [exhausted jogger voice]: “Okay, I’ve got four songs! I need like 12 songs—I gotta get busy!”

I guess you can ease the pressure a bit by making one of those songs, “Marais La Nuit,” 30 minutes of nature sounds…

You know there’s all this extra space [on a CD], so I thought, let’s put something soothing on there for the listener that they can use later, or not—you don’t have to listen to 37 minutes of frogs, but you can! It’s kind of a palate cleanser — it’s the only track on the record I listen to. It’s really quite soothing. They’re the frogs from my front yard and I went and taped them.

Middle Cyclone features two covers: Sparks’ “Never Turn Your Back on Mother Earth,” and Harry Nilsson’s “Don’t Forget Me.” How do you know when a cover song is right for you?

Yeah, it’s hard. I’ve wanted to do both of those songs for a really long time, but you’ve got to wait until there’s a group of songs that they fit with, or you’ve got to have a really unusual idea for that song. Like, why would you cover a Harry Nilsson song? You can’t be Harry Nilsson, there’s no way I’m going to sing as good as him or play as good a piano—oh, and by the way, there’s an orchestra in the background! He’s pretty much ruined all possibilities, but if you got at it from an overkill angle on one thing—how ‘bout a whole bunch of semi-amateur piano players playing at the same time in a barn?—maybe that will work. It was a 21-piano salute, and Garth Hudson was the ringer. He seemed like a pretty laid back guy, so I’m hoping he would appreciate it.

Was there any alcohol involved?

No, surprisingly. It was such hard work. There were a couple of days here and there where [multi-instrumentalist] Paul [Rigby] and I would just fall off the wagon and listen to Aerosmith and get drunk instead of working songs like we were supposed to. Or we’d just lay on the floor and watch Talladega Nights three times in a row. You just have to give the brain a vacation, otherwise it just rebels. I’m not much of a drinker and when I get focused, I’m pretty focused. There’s a lot of dinner-eating, a lot of socializing with guests.

What’s your history of Sparks fandom?

I got to see them in London a couple of years ago, when I was on a promo tour for Fox Confessor. They had done that Lil Beethoven record and it was such a good show. I remember hearing them in the ‘80s and liking them, but I think Carl was responsible for my real Sparks epiphany in the early-’90s.

Do you see each record as a discrete thing?

I can see ties to the old ones. But they all seem a little different. They’re like little satellites off of each other. It’s like asexual reproduction in the world of plants.

How long do you want to tour? You seem to take healthy breaks between records.

I take longer because I’m not that prolific and I also have to devote time to The New Pornographers. This year, I’ll probably be touring for a year and a half to two years.

By leveling up to a bigger label like Anti- place more expectation on you?

Yeah, but it runs both ways. They know that I will tour—that’s one of the reasons they wanted me, because I was already a touring musician on my own. They didn’t have to build up that desire in me, because I already have it. I know what touring does for the sales of a record, and I know what touring does for me as a person—I just really like to do it. I expect them to push it and they expect me to push it in a really healthy way. They never tell me what to do, but they have a lot of ideas. They’ve never not done something they said they were going to do. And obviously I don’t know what makes hits!

Where were you on inauguration day?

I was in New York City doing many photo shoots, so I wasn’t able to watch it. But Kelly [Hogan] and Paul went to Times Square—it was very emotional. I couldn’t get emotional about it because I had four inches of make-up on, so I was like, “don’t tell me about it, don’t turn on the TV or this is going to go south. We flew all the way here to do this, I’ve got to be cool.”

Back on Blacklisted, the shadow of the Bush presidency seemed to hover over the record, but in our discussion at that time, you were also expressing your hope for the country and its people.

The people are really great; it’s just hard that the powers are in the hands of such a small percentage of such incredible douchebags. I have a lot of hope for the new administration—not to use their tag word over and over again—but I really have a lot of faith based on what an eloquent speaker [Obama] is, and what a smart man he is. I voted for him in Illinois years ago, and he seems like a guy with a conscience. I was really impressed that he was the first president I’ve ever heard use the word “gay” in a speech, when he won the presidency and said, “I’m here for all Americans, Black, white, gay, straight.”

I’ve never heard a president make a reference like that to people, and I thought, “Maybe this really is going to be different.” Especially with what was going on at that time with the whole California gay-marriage thing, which is so insane! Wow, we live in a time when an African-American man is finally president and it’s killer, and yet 70 percent of Californians—one of the most liberal states in the United States—voted against gay rights. I don’t get why people can’t see the whole picture. Do people not realize how many gay people they know? I think they don’t. If they realized how many people that they ran into, or sold them groceries, they would lighten up a little. I think there’s a really big problem in the United States with the Catholic Church and nobody’s really coming out against this. Homosexuality is not pedophilia. Homosexuality is not a deviant practice. Why haven’t we made that distinction? Why aren’t people more protective of their neighbours?

The whole country is supposed to be based on freedom of religion, so if Obama is a god-fearing man, that’s totally cool. Some people really take that inspiration and do really great things with it. But America is a more conservative country than it has been in a long time. Even popular culture is really letting us down. Like, movies like Knocked Up and Juno are really popular, and it’s like, “have the fucking abortion already! People have abortions!” But they won’t touch that in a movie. The last movie I remember where somebody had an abortion and it was a regular thing was Fast Times at Ridgemont High! There was an episode of Weeds where it happened and I was so shocked and excited, and I know it makes me sound like some sort of baby-killing fanatic, but the thing is, women’s reproductive rights are a really big deal to me, and while we can pretend that popular culture doesn’t sway the way people think about things, but it does.

So when somebody I think is smart, like Judd Apatow, makes a movie, I don’t expect him to do something fucking stupid like that. It’s like, “We can make abortion jokes all we want,” but that woman would not have had that guy’s baby, I’m sorry! People do it, they do it quietly, and it’s their decision and maybe their lives are ruined and maybe they’re not. It’s not black or white. I’m not anti-adoption, I think adoption’s the best idea ever, there’s so many kids out there that nobody wants. But some people can’t give their kid away, and some people can’t have a kid. It’s up to their individual thing. It’s not being represented in popular culture, and it’s really bothering me right now. I’m sure that’s going to be just awesome for your readers to read—they’re going to be so excited that we’re talking about how lame the movie Juno is.

Do you want to start a family?

Oh hell no. I like dogs. My genetics do not need to go any further than they are right now. My murderous drunken family doesn’t need to continue! If I start a family, I will adopt. I don’t need to reproduce. And I don’t have any desire to get married or anything. I feel out of place a lot—I’m in my mid-30s, and everybody’s married and having kids, and that’s cool. It’s just not something I want to do, and I don’t want to feel like I’m on the outside because I don’t want to do that. People are very entitled with their children a lot of times. Having a baby is not a miracle, sorry. People have been doing it for a really long time. I get bummed out when you read those interviews with women who say things like, “my life didn’t mean anything until I had Jordan!” That’s fucking pathetic.

I don’t think I would be a good mother right now anyway. Maybe later I will be, and then I’ll adopt a kid. I just think it’s unfair that somebody out there is waiting for a mom, but I need to have it look like me. I don’t need to have it look like me. There’s a lot of people out there who are great about talking about their kids, and they get it—they obviously are great parents and take it seriously, but they’re also able to make jokes about it: “I thought about selling my children for a while, but then I realized I could get them to do the dishes.” I always sound very hardline about everything, but I just mean for me, and in pop culture, I want to see those women represented a little more.

ENCORES

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And if you crave more of Neko’s prose and candour, look out for her memoir, The Harder I Fight the More I Love You, coming out this January. Here’s what you can expect from it.